Jensen Huang’s Affair, the NVIDIA Investigation & Quiet Quitting a Marriage

[00:00:00] Chalene Johnson : Today we are talking about the affair that has shook the world, and what it means to quietly quit a relationship. When you’re in a relationship that there’s nothing terribly wrong, you’re not fighting, there hasn’t been an affair, but you’re just done. You’re over it. You’re sick of being the person who’s putting forth all the effort, or most the effort, and you’re just kind of over it.

[00:00:31] Chalene Johnson : Is it possible to get that spark back? Is it possible to bounce back from that? And if you’re so alone in your relationship, could leaving make you feel more connected? We’re talking about all that and so much more here today on The Chalene Show. And by the way, in this episode, I’m going to ask for your stories, your quiet quitting stories.

[00:00:56] Chalene Johnson : You can share with me your quiet quitting stories about quitting a friendship in this way or a relationship, and you can keep your story fully confidential by sending me an email at thechaleneshow@gmail.com. I will put that email address in my show notes as well. All right, let’s get to it. Actually, before we get to the juiciest of juicy stories, can we talk about hair growth?

[00:01:22] Chalene Johnson : It’s a thing, I get DMs every single day from ladies saying like, “Why is my hair not growing? Chalene, what are you putting on your hair? H- have you struggled with this?” Girls, yes. It’s just a thing. I’ve noticed it right away, perimenopause, started having thinning hair, and I’ve always had thin hair. I’ve always had a lot of hair, but it’s always been very fine.

[00:01:46] Chalene Johnson : But then once I hit perimenopause, hormones, et cetera, like, not only did it feel like my hair was getting thin spots, but it just wasn’t growing. I had a very well-known dermatologist on the show, and with the goal, my intention was to actually find out what actually works. I don’t wanna waste money on gummies or serums or anything else.

[00:02:12] Chalene Johnson : Please, tell me what works. And when she broke it down for us, one of the most exciting things for me to learn was that red light actually works. Advanced laser hair growth systems, the ones that are using the right lasers with the right LEDs, because some of the stuff that is being sold on the market, it’s just junk.

[00:02:33] Chalene Johnson : They’re not actually lasers that are gonna improve your hair growth. So once we finished doing the interview, I actually asked her, “Okay, what brand?” And guess what brand she told me? iRestore. So that’s the one I bought. I bought the iRestore Elite. It’s like a little helmet that you wear on your head, and you only have to wear it for, like, 15 minutes at night.

[00:02:53] Chalene Johnson : This thing makes a huge difference. It’s so easy. Just wear it for 15 minutes at night while you’re watching your favorite show. For me, I tried to do that for a little while, and I just wasn’t as consistent as I am once I moved my iRestore Elite to the area by my little desk where I put on my makeup. So I just wear it while I’m putting on my makeup.

[00:03:16] Chalene Johnson : It’s so easy And the reason why I wanted to mention it today is because the iRestore is running a Black Friday sale. It runs right now through the 27th of November. Huge discounts on all of their red light therapy devices, and they’ve got a bunch of them, too. Like, red light therapy is legit, you guys, and this is the best technology on the market.

[00:03:37] Chalene Johnson : I personally use the iRestore Elite helmet, but they’ve also got a face mask that’s phenomenal. So whether you’re buying a gift for somebody on your list or maybe you’re just securing a great deal for yourself, you can do so right now by going to iRestore.com. That’s the letter I, iRestore.com. Use code SHELENE to take advantage of the sale.

[00:03:59] Chalene Johnson : Oh, by the way, also really important to me, any company that offers a full money back guarantee because that gives you the ability to try the iRestore helmet. You can do it for 12 months, and if you don’t love your results, you can get your money back. Dude, that’s pretty insane. You can try it for a whole year.

[00:04:19] Chalene Johnson : If you don’t love how much that improves your hair, you get your money back. That’s a no-brainer. And by the way, this is a phenomenal way to support the show. So when they ask, please be sure to tell them that you were sent by The Shelene Show. That’s iRestore.com. Use code SHELENE to take advantage of the sale.

[00:04:37] Chalene Johnson : Can you imagine waking up today and your husband, whom you’ve been married to for 40 years, you have two grown children in their 30s. You’re the picture-perfect family. Everybody works together. Your kids work at the company. You work at the company with your husband. You met in college. The two of you fell in love at Oregon State.

[00:04:59] Chalene Johnson : You were both kinda nerdy, studying computer stuff. For a while there, you, as a wife, are the breadwinner. In fact, at one point, because your husband is so passionate about starting his company, you pawn your frickin’ wedding ring to save the company. And today You wake up and that company, the company that you were at your husband’s side, the two of you founded it together, you’ve been through the hardest, toughest things, and that company, which is today worth a trillion dollars, you wake up and find out that your fricking husband is on the cover of every newspaper, is the lead story on every news organization because the CEO, that would be Jensen Huang, whose wife is Lori Huang, it was just announced by him that he’s been having an affair.

[00:05:56] Chalene Johnson : But not just any run-of-the-mill affair that executives sometimes have. Not just executives. People have affairs every single day. So why is this one so earth-shattering? Why am I talking about this? Dude, this is crazy, and I’m fascinated by this. And it… to me, the things that people aren’t talking about in this story is mainly because I think lots of investors and people worried about national security, and they’re focused on those kinds of things, which is important, yes.

[00:06:28] Chalene Johnson : But there’s so many facets to this story that frankly are absolutely fascinating, blowing my mind. This is the that if you watched a movie on this, you’d like… you would think to yourself, “There’s no way this could happen in real life.” It feels like a Jason Bourne movie, to be honest Jensen Huang, he’s the guy who, if you just Google his name, he’ll pop up and you’ll probably recognize him.

[00:06:56] Chalene Johnson : He’s a Taiwanese American. I think he was born in Taiwan, but basically spent his life here in the United States. Handsome guy, older gentleman, salt and pepper gray hair. You would recognize him because he wears this, like, signature black leather jacket. It’s, like, a members only jacket. He’s always with Trump.

[00:07:14] Chalene Johnson : He’s always with all the other AI bros. He was on the stage with all the other AI bros, all the other millionaires, billionaires, and trillionaires that were on the stage with Trump during his inauguration. And we’re not gonna get into political things, but we have to a little bit because this is about politics.

[00:07:32] Chalene Johnson : Like, when we’re talking about national security, this is world politics. Jensen Huang is… And I didn’t realize this until, frankly, the last three days, but NVIDIA is the kingpin. I mean, they are more powerful than ChatGPT, OpenAI, Anthropic. When you think of, like, all the biggest names in AI, and you hear everybody talking about AI, and you hear these discussions about, like, “Oh, it could end us.

[00:08:06] Chalene Johnson : We need regulations,” and there’s just so many strange power plays that are happening around AI, right? And so you think of all the biggest AI companies, and Jensen Huang is always in that mix. But I didn’t understand fully how much NVIDIA controls All of the AI companies, like, they hold the chips because…

[00:08:33] Chalene Johnson : Oh, I mean pun, but I… The pun was not intended, but the pun is well-placed because they literally manufacture chips. But it’s more than computer chips. NVIDIA is basically, they provide all the software, the libraries, the, the development tools. All of the things that these AI companies need to train and develop their models are built and run on the hardware that NVIDIA has created.

[00:09:02] Chalene Johnson : Replacing that ecosystem with all of these other companies would be almost impossible. We’re talking Microsoft, Google, Oracle. They’re all specialists, but NVIDIA is a technology. Okay? Not only are they the most powerful company in the United States, it’s considered the most powerful technology in the world, and who wants our technology?

[00:09:31] Chalene Johnson : Who are we in a race against to win when it comes to AI? China, of course. Okay. So anyways, Jensen Huang, he’s, like, this legendary leader. People have written multiple books about his leadership style and how he’s just a man of high integrity and high character, and he’s been, you know, married to the same woman and, like, such an incredible family man for all these years, and it’s one of the reasons why so many people have invested and believe in his company and his leadership.

[00:10:04] Chalene Johnson : But on Sunday, he sends an email to his, apparently, the team at NVIDIA, and basically, he comes right out and says that he’s been cheating on his wife His quote was, “I was unfaithful to my wife. My actions hurt her and our children, and there is no excuse for what I did. I am deeply sorry.” In this email that he sent to the people at NVIDIA, he said, you know, that his family had given him love and support, and he had broken their trust.

[00:10:40] Chalene Johnson : He said that he loves his family, and he hopes that he can eventually earn their trust back. Kind of addresses the fact that he knows an apology isn’t gonna fix anything. And then he addresses the employees, the board, his business partners, the shareholders, and basically he’s like, y’all deserve better.

[00:10:57] Chalene Johnson : Leading NVIDIA has been the privilege of his life, and that he intends to rebuild their confidence. This email hits, and, I mean, people are in shock. Before anyone can even process what the family is going through and how devastating this is, you can’t help but realize, wait a second, the woman that he is allegedly having this affair with, I don’t mean allegedly, I think it’s been confirmed, is a Chinese spy, a woman who was commissioned by the Chinese government to entrap him, to seduce him.

[00:11:36] Chalene Johnson : They put her in a position where she was like a fake CEO of a major Chinese corporation With the sole purpose of seducing Jensen Huang, and getting as much intel on the most powerful company in the United States. Like, girl, I’m not making excuses for this guy, trust me. But I’m like, “This is pretty wild.”

[00:12:02] Chalene Johnson : I mean, did he ever even stand a chance? He’s got China, the second most powerful country in the world, conspiring to entrap him in a situation of fidelity and espionage. Like, this is a movie, this is sex, this is power, this is money, this is artificial intelligence, and an investigation into one of the most influential men, one of the most influential tech companies in the world being targeted by foreign intelligence.

[00:12:34] Chalene Johnson : An operation like a plot to a movie. I mean, Jensen has gotta be feeling pretty about himself, realizing this woman who he thought loved him or whatever, was into him, was really just being commissioned. She was just doing her job, that’s all. I mean, it blows my mind. First of all, like, how do you even get recruited to be a spy?

[00:12:59] Chalene Johnson : Like this whole thing fascinates me. Who finds her? What are they looking for? How do they screen for her intelligence? How do they know that she could pull this off? How much money did they pay her? How did they know that they could trust her? This is just a major operation. I know everyone’s talking about, “Oh, he had an affair with a spy,” but do you understand, like, all of the pre-planning that went into this?

[00:13:23] Chalene Johnson : This means that there were meetings in some boardroom in China, where they had to figure out every possible angle they could on Jensen Huang. Like, he was the target. And apparently, top executives at the biggest companies, especially all the AI companies, any company that has anything to do with defense, they all know that they are fair game.

[00:13:48] Chalene Johnson : I didn’t know this But China wants access to anything that could give them more power, so they want to know what’s going on with our defense companies, with aerospace, anything related to AI or advanced chips, uh, biotech, medicine, energy, manufacturing, universities and research, obviously government, politics, telecommunications, technology, all of these companies, all of these industries.

[00:14:19] Chalene Johnson : When you are a leader, when you are at the top of those industries, apparently espionage from China is a very common thing, and it’s something that they’re warned about, something that they have to be very, very careful. It’s why things are so carefully guarded when it comes to trade secrets, and some of the stuff isn’t just trade secrets, it’s considered national security.

[00:14:44] Chalene Johnson : And the stories of espionage from other countries is pretty fascinating. Like, in preparation for this episode, I was like, “I wonder how often this has happened?” And I found this story of this guy who worked in the Federal Reserve, who basically gets a LinkedIn message… I’m gonna go on a little side tangent here, but this is interesting, too.

[00:15:04] Chalene Johnson : So he gets a LinkedIn message from somebody in 2013 who is like, “Wow, we’re really impressed with your knowledge.” This guy at the time worked at the Federal Reserve. Okay? And they’re like, “We’re really impressed with your knowledge. We would love to have you come and speak to our students at such and such university.”

[00:15:23] Chalene Johnson : All expense paid, they’re showering him with praise, and you’re a government employee working at the Federal Reserve, and you’re like, “What? This university in China wants me to come and speak to their students? Well, this sounds pretty cool.” You know, he’s this, like, nerdy economist. He flies over to China, meets the guy who reaches out to him.

[00:15:45] Chalene Johnson : They become buddies. This guy’s an academic. By the way, the guy that worked in the Federal Reserve, his name was John Rogers. So John is like, “Oh, cool, I’ve got this, like, friend over in China.” His contact at the university. And just coincidentally, this guy, Lee, who’s, you know, an academic at this university, they have so much in common, just randomly.

[00:16:09] Chalene Johnson : This guy knows about American football, and they just have so much in common. And of course, Lee, he’s a professor over in China, and he’s an economy professor. And so how perfect for an economist from the United States and an economy professor in China, well, of course they’re gonna talk about economics.

[00:16:29] Chalene Johnson : But not all the time, because they’re friends, so they talk about all kinds of things. All kinds of things. This is a friendship that develops over the course of 10 years. These guys become best friends. Rogers absolutely says he, he would, like, lay his life down for Lee. He loves this guy. Yeah, a little spoiler, Lee was a Chinese spy.

[00:16:57] Chalene Johnson : He was conducting espionage. This case was insane. It literally went on for 10 years. Listen to this quick little recording from Rogers conducted during an investigation when, where they were trying to determine if, in fact, Rogers knew that he was being used by Lee So this audio is part of the questioning of Rogers during the investigation.

[00:17:26] Chalene Johnson : Listen to what he says

[00:17:28] Chalene Johnson : I love the guy, don’t get me wrong. I do. I owe everything to him. The relationship, my wife wouldn’t have happened, despite the fact that we met online. It, it sh- just would not have happened without him. And I love him like a brother. I actually asked him to be the best man. All right.

[00:17:40] Chalene Johnson : And he said, “Dude, your brother is here.”

[00:17:43] Clip: Awkward. Yeah. Yeah. So you think h- his generosity and kindness was genuine? Totally genuine.

[00:17:50] Chalene Johnson : Look, there’s something in it for

[00:17:52] Chalene Johnson : them, too. But, you know, and I did have to be careful about my role in the Fed, and boy, the Chinese are watching everything that the US does. I don’t mean that in an espionage way.

[00:18:03] Chalene Johnson : I’m sure they are doing espionage- Mm-hmm … but, uh, I don’t confront that.

[00:18:06] Chalene Johnson : The fact that he mentions that there are spies out there, there is espionage, but, like, he would never be a part of that. Like, why would they ever go after him? Well, they did. He was the perfect target, and again, this is so complex.

[00:18:21] Chalene Johnson : Eventually, Rogers divorces his wife, falls in love with a young Chinese student that he meets coincidentally on one of his trips to go speak at the university. Coincidentally, the second time he meets this woman, this Chinese woman, coincidentally, he gets her pregnant, and then his good friend Lee at the university pulls some special strings and helps get this woman to the United States.

[00:18:54] Chalene Johnson : That’s why you just heard Roger say like, “Yeah, I wouldn’t have even met my wife.” Like, at the point which he was giving this interview, part of the investigation, he, he had no idea all of it was a setup All of it. Not just the bond he thought he had with this bro, Li, who lived in China, but his new wife.

[00:19:16] Chalene Johnson : ‘Cause eventually, that woman that he met in China, they brought her to the United States, they have the baby, they get married. It’s all part of the plan, and Rogers is feeling more and more indebted to Li because Li’s helping him to do all of these things. Rogers becomes so indebted to him, you heard him, he said he loved him like a brother.

[00:19:40] Chalene Johnson : All along, Li was getting information from someone who was working inside the Federal Reserve, that being Rogers, right? And so Rogers thinks he’s just having casual conversations with Li about US finances. Meanwhile, he’s been the target all along, and he’s giving this information to China, giving them the economic advantage, including insights into the US interest rates and decisions.

[00:20:10] Chalene Johnson : And Rogers ultimately gave all this information to Li, and Li was a spy, and Rogers wasn’t supposed to be sharing any of this information with anyone, let alone someone from China. Ultimately, he was charged with espionage, Rogers, which is very likely what could happen, probably very likely to happen, with the founder of NVIDIA, Jensen Huang.

[00:20:41] Chalene Johnson : What happened to Rogers, he was acquitted of conspiring to commit economic espionage, but he was, however, sentenced to 38 months in prison for lying to investigators, and some say that he lied to investigators to protect his buddy. Reporters, after it was all said and done, have asked Rogers how he felt once he found out that Li was actually a spy, and Rogers just said, “Duped.

[00:21:09] Chalene Johnson : Completely duped. I thought he was my friend.” I wonder how completely duped Jensen Huang must feel today. Listen, I have zero, zero empathy for somebody who has cheated on their spouse, and obviously he’s fully responsible. Like, the betrayal, the trauma, I cannot even imagine what his wife and his children are going through right now.

[00:21:36] Chalene Johnson : However, and oh man, I could probably get canceled for this, but also the… He was deliberately targeted Not just by like a woman, but like by a country. Do you understand the intelligence operation that went into taking this man down? He wasn’t just up against a woman flirting with him, you know? Where you’re like, “Oh, he should’ve known better.

[00:22:06] Chalene Johnson : Any man should’ve known better.” Like, you know, you’ve gotta have some self-control here. Dude, he was up against a nation’s intelligence. People probably studying his ego, his insecurities, what made him feel important, what his likes and dislikes were, how to earn his trust. I don’t know. Again, don’t get it twisted.

[00:22:27] Chalene Johnson : I’m not excusing it. I’m just saying I’m sure there are men out there who wouldn’t fall for it Maybe? But how many men could confidently say, “Oh, would never be me”? ‘Cause you’re picturing yourself in a normal situation, but we’re talking about an entire intelligence service studying every weakness you have.

[00:22:57] Chalene Johnson : They know exactly what it takes to make you weak, to make you insecure, to make it almost humanly impossible maybe. I don’t know. We really don’t know. I’ve… This is a part to me that, like, I have so many questions.

[00:23:13] Chalene Johnson : We talk about supplements a lot on the show, and I’m often asked, like, how do I

[00:23:18] Chalene Johnson : know if they’re not FDA regulated?

[00:23:22] Chalene Johnson : How do you know if you’re actually buying from a good company? It’s a great question, and it is an important question. I don’t care what kind of supplement you’re looking at, make sure you’re buying from a reputable company. It’s one of the reasons why you always hear me talking about Organifi. I drink their Immunity, take that for my immune system.

[00:23:39] Chalene Johnson : That’s how I get in those essentials, and so many of us, like, instead of worrying about all these, like, extra high-tech things you can do to biohack your body, focus on the essentials first, you know? And that’s what you can count on when you go with Organifi. I take Organifi Immunity every day for that reason.

[00:23:58] Chalene Johnson : Organifi is spelled O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I, and I’m spelling that for you because when you go to organifi.com/chalene and you use code CHALENE, you’re gonna get 20% off all of their products. That’s pretty huge. Again, it’s Organifi, O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com/chalene. Use code CHALENE for 20% off. Also, if you’re looking for a collagen powder that blends so nicely in water and at the same time boosts your collagen production, which helps with your, your skin, your hair, your nails, your joints, all of those things.

[00:24:35] Chalene Johnson : So again, check out Organifi. Those are just s- my favorites, but they’ve got so many great solutions when it comes to the nutrients that, you know, even if you’re eating pretty perfectly, no one is 100% perfect, right? So check it out, organifi.com/chalene.

[00:24:51] Clip: Use code CHALENE for 20% off.

[00:24:54] Chalene Johnson : Oh, by the way, did I tell you her last name is the same as his last name?

[00:24:57] Chalene Johnson : Like, was that intentional too? It had to have been, right? I don’t know. But was she trained by, as an intelligence officer? Had someone recruited her because maybe she already had access or had already met him? Who would she have been reporting to? How far up does something like this go? Like, does the president of China get debriefed on this daily?

[00:25:24] Chalene Johnson : How much does this woman get paid, or, or does she get paid, or, or is this something she’s just supposed to do to serve her country? And what if she had actually developed feelings for him, the, the person who she’s supposedly targeting? And by the way, I don’t even know, where is she right now? Like, we know that she’s a spy, but, like, is she in China?

[00:25:44] Chalene Johnson : Is China denying this? I should know this. I probably should have known it before I started recording, but I don’t. And I wanna know, like, is she in protective custody? Is she in danger? And when did China start targeting Jensen? That I’m really… I would love to know. Like, was it 15 years ago? Had they tried to tempt him with other women and it didn’t work?

[00:26:07] Chalene Johnson : Had they tried to tempt him with a, a best buddy? You know what I mean? Had they tried the whole thing they did with Rogers? What other ways had they tried to target him? Because apparently every major executive, all the AI executives, like I said, all the defense executives, the Federal Reserve, anyone who works in the defense industry, anyone who works in any type of technology or anything that could give China the advantage, apparently, apparently, allegedly, they have a huge network of espionage, of- spies who work to infiltrate, and they might not necessarily be Chinese.

[00:26:43] Chalene Johnson : They might appear to be Americans. So again, were there other women who were used and it just, Jensen didn’t take the bait? Was this the first one? And this part, you know, I don’t have all of the details, but apparently Mark Rubio knew by this spring of this year, but the exact date that he first learned about it has not been made public.

[00:27:07] Chalene Johnson : Apparently, there was an investigation. According to the reporting, he oversaw a classified memo warning that this Chinese spy was involved with this, someone whose identity was protected in the reports. Now, to me, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Like, why was his identity being protected? And as far as I can find, that’s pretty normal, that Americans have privacy protections when their information kinda gets swept into foreign intelligence collections.

[00:27:38] Chalene Johnson : And so what they had to do is something that’s called unmasking. It’s a term that basically means they have to petition the US government to reveal an identity. Can you imagine, can you imagine the moment it is revealed that it’s Jensen Huang? I mean, people must have just bricks. Like, again, if, if you haven’t really been following all of the AI stories and the talk about exchanging chips with China, exchanging information with China, this story might not have been on your radar, but I’m telling you, we’re gonna find out that this is so much deeper than what it appears to be.

[00:28:25] Chalene Johnson : I don’t know. It’s interesting. Like, normally when something like this happens, when there’s a scandalous cheating affair or infidelity at a really high level with a really powerful company, it’s just an immediate ousting. Like, the board immediately removes the CEO But with this particular company, and as much power as Nvidia yields, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

[00:28:54] Chalene Johnson : Here’s what Steven Witt had to say about Jensen Huang and how much thought and planning probably went into this. By the way, Steven Witt is the author of the book that everybody’s talking about, about Jensen Huang, which is called The Thinking Machine. Here’s what he had to say.

[00:29:12] Clip: This is the thing that shocks me, okay?

[00:29:15] Clip: Like, uh, you know, it’s terrible that Jensen had an affair, but these things do happen, right, in the course of kind of like human life. I’m so shocked that Jensen had an affair with this specific woman- Mm-hmm … who is just a walking red flag. Like, she had no background in computer science as far as anyone can tell.

[00:29:34] Clip: Mm-hmm. And suddenly she’s running this kind of data center operation that’s a front. Uh, this woman is a smuggler. A- and, like, to begin a, a romantic relationship with someone like that just shows an almost, like, self-destructive amount of poor judgment. I, I can’t believe nobody warned him, but you know, the thing about Jensen is he’s, he’s very headstrong and doesn’t listen to any advice.

[00:29:57] Clip: I mean, so, you know, he-

[00:29:58] Clip: Yeah, I mean, let me ask. You wrote, you have sort of literally written the book on Jensen. You spent- Yeah … a lot of time sort of in his head. What do you think was going on there? Was it just a, a total lapse in judgment?

[00:30:08] Clip: Yeah. Yeah, pure hubris. Right. You know, he, he, he fell for it. Yeah. I mean, he got played.

[00:30:13] Clip: He got played. That’s all you can say.

[00:30:15] Chalene Johnson : Ironically, I was actually preparing to do an episode on a topic many of you have talked about in this community, and that is not having an affair per se, but being in a relationship where you are still in the relationship but you’ve checked out. And for some They eventually, like, leave the relationship.

[00:30:40] Chalene Johnson : But it’s a concept called quiet quitting. Quiet quitting is when, like, you haven’t officially ended it… And, and this can sometimes happen even in friendships, but more often I’m hearing it’s happening in marriages and relationships where you’ve been together for a really long time. It’s a relationship that feels like we’re done trying, nobody’s fighting, and it feels like you’re just roommates.

[00:31:11] Chalene Johnson : Like, maybe you still share a house, you still share responsibilities, you sleep in the same bed, but you’ve just, you’ve kind of stopped reaching out to each other. And that’s why I say sometimes this happens in friendships, right? Like, sometimes you just… Maybe you’re the person who always does the planning, always does the texting, and you have had conversations with your friend or maybe you haven’t.

[00:31:36] Chalene Johnson : Maybe you just feel like it’s one-sided. And I’ve heard from some of you have said, “You know, I, I had a relationship. It felt one-sided. I decided to stop being the one to try to get us together, and this person just never reached out again and we just slowly drifted apart.” And is, is quiet quitting just another way of saying we’ve slowly drifted apart?

[00:32:02] Chalene Johnson : I don’t know. But let’s talk about it in romantic relationships, because that’s where I think it’s the most painful. And I’m not suggesting that when you drift apart from someone who you thought you had a close relationship with as a, as a friend, that that’s not painful. Of course it can be. But I think it’s really painful when it’s someone who you’ve taken a vow to, you’ve committed to, and you’ve tried really hard, and you’ve asked for changes to be made.

[00:32:34] Chalene Johnson : Or maybe you’ve done your part or you think you have, and now you’re just, you’re done trying. And for a lot of women in particular, they stay in relationships because… Well, for m- many reasons. You might stay in a relationship because you think to yourself, at this age, do I really wanna start over? Do I really want to upset everybody in the family?

[00:33:02] Chalene Johnson : Like, maybe you’ve got grown children and grandchildren and multiple mortgages, or just things are complicated. And then you think to yourself, is it worth- Upsetting all of this when it’s not good, but it’s also not that bad. Wherever you’re listening, if you’re comfortable, if what I’m talking about resonates, and you don’t have to share details, wherever you’re commenting, we need to keep this all confidential.

[00:33:32] Chalene Johnson : But you could just say, “I can relate to this topic.” That’s all you have to say, and we can read between the lines. But I think this happens more frequently than we realize because, you know, you go out to dinner with your friends, they’ve been married for 30 years. They aren’t arguing at dinner. We just don’t know what’s happening behind closed doors.

[00:33:56] Chalene Johnson : We don’t know when a couple, they’re just handling logistics, they’re going through the motions, and no one in the relationship is putting in the effort to improve the relationship. You’re just like you’re ho-humming it. You’re no longer making bids. And making a bid is when you’re making an effort, you’re going above and beyond, or you’re just, like, really making an effort.

[00:34:21] Chalene Johnson : You’re reaching out to your partner. You’re trying. You’re putting them first. You’re thinking about how they might feel. You’re doing something intentionally to make them feel good or to, I don’t know, to flirt with them, to care for them. Then you just get to a point where you’re like, “Yeah, I don’t feel like putting in the effort anymore.”

[00:34:42] Chalene Johnson : You’re almost like, I don’t wanna say resentful But sometimes it can pass into that place, and that’s a dangerous place to be. When you’ve gone past the place of just being apathetic and now you’re resentful, that can kinda eat away at a person. And I’m not talking about, like, a temporary rough patch. So I think that’s important to make that distinction.

[00:35:07] Chalene Johnson : I know I’m guilty of when things are not going well, it’s hard for me to remember when times were going well, and not just in my relationship, like even with even at work. Like, sometimes if things aren’t going well with someone I work with and they’re just not reaching their potential, they’re not fulfilling their KPIs and their responsibilities, I know this about myself, I have a hard time remembering it hasn’t always been like this.

[00:35:36] Chalene Johnson : But it’s an important thing to do because you don’t wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is important for us to go, like, “Okay, is this a rough patch, and am I making it worse in, in my mind than what it really is? Or has it been headed this way for a really long time?” And those are two different scenarios.

[00:35:58] Chalene Johnson : Quiet quitting looks like conversations that no longer revolve around your future together or, like, things that you’re looking forward to planning together. When you know that you have reached that stage when all the conversations you have are like, they’re kinda roommate conversations, like the bills, the kids, the errands, the house, the things that have nothing to do with romance, that have nothing to do with feeling intimately connected to each other.

[00:36:29] Chalene Johnson : You stop asking questions beyond just normal life coordination topics. You no longer share exciting news. You no longer are curious about what your partner’s thinking, and you no longer are putting your partner first. Usually in situations where one or both parties are quietly quitting, it means you’ve likely stopped bringing up things that you would like to see done differently.

[00:37:00] Chalene Johnson : You stop having conversations about what’s bothering you. You stop talking about things that you wish would change because, frankly, you know nothing’s going to change. You no longer share exciting news. You no longer share exciting thoughts or private thoughts. If there is affection in the relationship, it’s often very automatic, you know, like just the standard kiss on the cheek or whatever.

[00:37:29] Chalene Johnson : It doesn’t feel spontaneous anymore. Future plans are increasingly kind of you thinking about just yourself in your own head. And most partners Who say that they’ve quietly quit their relationship describe their overwhelming feeling as being lonely, being in a relationship but feeling extremely alone.

[00:37:54] Chalene Johnson : And experts say that it’s often one person in the relationship who has made this decision a- and it’s usually the person in the relationship who’s tried and tried and tried, and they just feel like nothing is ever gonna change. And for whatever reason, they have just decided to stay, but their repeated attempts to connect feel ignored, so they’re not gonna try anymore It’s usually unresolved resentment.

[00:38:26] Chalene Johnson : Sometimes it can be that one person has a lot more responsibilities than the other, and again, they’ve tried to have these conversations with their partner about what it is they need, but they don’t feel as though the other person is listening or has the ability to change, or wants to change, or is motivated to change, or is motivated to contribute.

[00:38:46] Chalene Johnson : And so it tends to make the person who’s doing the quiet quitting feel a level of resentment. Sometimes it can happen from being criticized or feeling rejected, or feeling like someone’s taking you for granted, letting parenting or work or, you know, just being super busy caregiving completely consume your relationship.

[00:39:10] Chalene Johnson : Maybe it’s one or both partners. Apparently, quiet quitting is very common in relationships where both people are, how do I say this? Stubborn, and they’re unwilling to be the one who’s gonna make the first move. If you’ve ever been in a relationship where neither person wants to be the first to apologize, that’s a pretty tough place to be.

[00:39:37] Chalene Johnson : You know, one person usually has to be the bigger person, so when you’ve got two people who are just like refuse to make that move, yeah, you’re stuck at, at a stalemate. However, if you’re the person who’s sick of always being the one to apologize, who’s annoyed and resentful that you’re the one that always has to make the first move and the person who has to try the hardest, eventually you’re like, “Okay, well I’m, I’m done trying.”

[00:40:05] Chalene Johnson : And those are some of the signs that you might be in a relationship where you or your partner is doing some quiet quitting. But I also wanna point out that not every situation where one of you is withdrawing is actually quiet quitting, because sometimes it’s just a rough spot. Sometimes you’re going through a patch of grief or something’s going on with your health, or just super stressful at work.

[00:40:33] Chalene Johnson : You’re just exhausted. Something’s going on with your kids, and that’s definitely going to impact connection. There are times in all relationships, like there’s a momentum, there’s a rhythm to relationships, and there are periods of time where you’re gonna have less sex. There are periods of time where you’re going to feel less connected, not as close emotionally Sometimes you have to, you know, have a little bit of space when there’s conflict happening in your relationship and you’re not ready to return to a particular conversation.

[00:41:07] Chalene Johnson : You’re not, you’re not ready to solve the thing. Like, you need some time to process. That’s different. I also think it’s important to tell you that experts say you can come back from quiet quitting, but it does start by having the ability to communicate. Like, I really truly do believe that is the cornerstone of an excellent relationship is communication, and there’s always one partner who’s a better communicator.

[00:41:34] Chalene Johnson : There’s always. Always, always. We can’t ask our partners to be someone they’re not, but we can find ways to facilitate better communication. We can find ways to kinda close that distance. We can get very specific about what it is we want and what it is we need and what it is we won’t tolerate, and we have to ask whether both people are willing to rebuild and what each person has to be willing to do.

[00:42:07] Chalene Johnson : I think it’s important to have those kinds of conversations. I think that’s sometimes the wake-up call that the person who’s not doing the quiet quit… Like, I think a lot of times from everything I’ve looked at in preparation for this episode, most experts report that the person who’s doing the quiet quitting, they feel a very particular way about the relationship, and they feel as though they’ve expressed it repeatedly.

[00:42:33] Chalene Johnson : But the other party, the other person in the relationship, seems to be oblivious to this, and when this conversation, when push comes to shove and the person who’s done the quiet quitting is now deciding to leave, the other person in the relationship is kind of like, “What? Why didn’t you ever tell me?” And that can feel even more hurtful.

[00:42:58] Chalene Johnson : It’s like, am I just completely invisible? Have you not heard all the things I’ve been trying to say? And some experts call this a low-conflict, low-intimacy relationship. Like, there’s nothing obviously wrong. Like, there’s no big fight. There’s no betrayal. There’s no infidelity. There’s no sleeping with a foreign spy.

[00:43:23] Chalene Johnson : It just takes years for someone to admit how lonely that they’ve been feeling in the relationship. Some people call it a good enough marriage that suddenly stops feeling good enough. Maybe they still love each other. But one person in the relationship maybe starts to ask themself, “Is this what marriage is supposed to feel like?

[00:43:49] Chalene Johnson : Is this what I want for the next 10 years? Am I okay with this?” And not surprisingly, this type of relationship where one person has kind of decided to stay, but they’re very, very lonely Even just a glance from someone of the opposite sex can make them feel something, something they’ve been missing for so long.

[00:44:14] Chalene Johnson : And it’s not that they’re, like, attracted or wanna go have an affair or anything like that per se, but it just makes them realize, like, “Oh, I, I wanna feel that. I wanna feel those butterflies. I wanna feel that connection. I wanna feel desire. I wanna feel connected. I wanna feel intimacy. I wanna feel excitement.

[00:44:34] Chalene Johnson : I miss the passion that I once felt for my partner, and I want that again. I’m in a stage of my life now where maybe I can take care of myself.” And I think this is one of the reasons why the gray divorce is happening more frequently, and why more often than not, it is women who are asking for the divorce.

[00:44:59] Chalene Johnson : The gray divorce is up 70%, over 70%. It’s really becoming quite an epidemic. Some say an epidemic of loneliness. So I guess the question is, what can you do to prevent it? Like, is there something that you could have done earlier to avoid getting into this place where you’re just staying, and maybe you love this person, but you’ve lost that intimacy, you’ve lost that connection, you’ve lost that thing that you so wish you had?

[00:45:37] Chalene Johnson : Maybe you never had it. Maybe it’s a relationship that’s always just been good enough, and now you’re at a stage where you realize life is short, and good enough isn’t good enough. I know that I’m in a very fortunate position with my husband. I think it’s a lot of things. I think it’s God’s plan. I think it’s luck, our emotional intelligence.

[00:46:01] Chalene Johnson : I think it’s therapy. I think it’s that we’ve been through so many things together. I think it’s the fact that we both enjoy… That we really, really like each other. The luck piece is, you know, just two people who are really committed to communication and dropping our egos. I think it is learning to be better communicators.

[00:46:24] Chalene Johnson : I think that we are pretty rare, and I know no relationship is perfect or guaranteed. You know, humans are, are flawed, and we’re sometimes unpredictable. But to feel the kind of love and support and connection, intimacy, and passion And just respect and just excitement about the future. I can’t even tell you how grateful I am to have that.

[00:46:52] Chalene Johnson : I want that for you. I want that for my friends. I want that for– I think everybody wants that. Everybody wants to be desired and to be loved, and we wanna feel passion and excitement, all these things. But is it possible to get it back? I’d love to hear from you. Tell me where you’re at, if you’re comfortable sharing.

[00:47:11] Chalene Johnson : If you wanna do so on the Patreon or inside of our Facebook group, you can. Or you can send me a private email and I do not have to share your name. J- you just tell me right up front, like, “Hey, this is all confidential. I’m gonna even change the names and the places,” whatever you need to do. But I would love to hear your stories.

[00:47:32] Chalene Johnson : Are you in a relationship right now that you have quit quietly? Were you lonely in your relationship, and that’s why you left, and now you’re divorced and on your own? And what is that experience like? Are you happy with your decision? What does that feel like? Are you less lonely now that you’ve left the relationship?

[00:47:52] Chalene Johnson : And for those of you who maybe were at a stage in your marriage or your relationship where you had quietly quit but then something changed and you got it back, tell us about your story. Share those experiences, if you will. And again, the email is thechalinesshow@gmail.com. I’ll put it in our show notes as well.

[00:48:18] Chalene Johnson : thechalinesshow@gmail.com. And please keep this confidential is your first sentence, and I will do exactly that. But the more detail you can share with, with me, the more I’ll be able to help the audience. All right. I love you. I mean it, and I’ll talk to you soon.